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First Rosette - Any Advice?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10217		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LarryH [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:21 am ]
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Hey all,

I've just purchased a redwood top from LMI and it will need rosette and sound hole work (which I didn't need to do on my first kit guitars) and I am a bit nervous about the possibilities. I know the subject has been covered but perhaps a primer for us first timers if you would be so generous.

I have a dremel and a Bosch colt lam trimmer but no jigs or bits as of yet. I will probably do a 3 tier set up with the center tier being abalone with a WBW detail on each side flanked by 2 more WBW details.

I have OK skills but have found that I have purchased some jusk in the past trying to save money only having to spend it later so I would like to do it right as I don't want to kill this top.

So any recommendations on jigs, bits and set-ups?

Thank You
Larry
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:44 am ]
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Hey Larry, we've had some good posts recently regarding bits and jig's.

Stew-mac has some good bits down to 1/32" dia you can use in the dremel or the lam trimmer with a 1/4-1/8 adapter sleeve. I strongly suggest that you use the Laminate trimmer as I've heard others say that the runout in a dremel can be bad.

As for the circle cutter jig. You can make a very accurate, micro adjust jig for around $5.

Here's one that I made based on one from Tony Karol



And here is the link to Tony's circle cutter jig.

Also, Sylvan Well's put up some instructions for making one like Tony's on his web site here

These are easy to make, inexpensive and very very accurate.Rod True39089.5323148148
Author:  James W B [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:02 am ]
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I haven`t had any trouble with my dremel when I used Stew Macs mini base and circle cutter with there downcut bits. Seams real clean to me.
                               James
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:41 am ]
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I should at least let you know that I don't and have never owned a dremel so I'm only going on my memory of other's information regarding the runout.

As you can read from some great guys above, the dremel will work fine, just watch for runout.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:00 am ]
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Larry-
I think you have 'one of each' in the recommendations above.
I've used a Dremel and lately a lam trimmer for rosettes. I think the Dremel is a better idea when you are starting out as it is much more compact and the visibility is better. Lots of light cuts and you should be fine. If you are a hobbyist, you will probably be 'creeping up' on the final dimensions anyway.

The hi-speed die grinder is an interesting idea, and one I'd certainly pursue if I were going to do a lot of cutting with smaller (< 3/16) cutters. The small cutters really like a much higher speed than the Dremel/router can provide.
The multi-line soundhole inlays are probably the trickiest of the circular inlays to cut recesses for. If you can do a good job on them, you can do most anything.

John
Author:  LarryH [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:12 am ]
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VERY helpful as usual. The jig looks intriguing and could make a great project in and of itself. Sometimes my time constraints don't allow for too many projects however, so I may look at the StewMac jigs as well. It's $100 plus for the StewMac base and jig though so that might help make the decision.

OK here's a question re: the jig directions - what's UHMW?
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:17 am ]
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Ultra High Molecular Weight   Its a type of plastic. Its cool stuff to work with. Its easy to cut and shape, yet its strong.
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:43 am ]
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Larry, you can get UHMW from almost any shop that makes things out of plastic. Look for a company that makes water troughs for livestock etc.

Or you can get a package of it from Lee Valley, they sell a 3lb bundle which will get you everything you will need for the base and more. You can use it for sanding blocks, clamping cauls, runners for the table saw mitre slot, there are lots of shop uses for it.

You can dill it, tap it, cut it on any of the saws in the shop, it works easy as Lillian said and is strong.

Also, wood glue won't stick to it, so it makes for great clamping cauls.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:58 am ]
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Larry,
Another option is to use a dremel with the dremel circle cutting jig. I think it was less than $20 for jig straight from dremel website, and free shipping. I just use a 1/8" downcut bit. Here is a pic of it:



I actually use the stewmac circle cutting jig for the dremel on guitars, but this was for a Uke, and the smallest diameter that the stew mac base will make is 3"(I think). I know it won't do a 2" diameter sound hole.

Couple of things to remember. Always start your cut under the fretboard extension. This way if you screw up, it will be covered by the extension. I also, first make the cut in the center of the rosette all the way around only taking 1/2 mm of depth. Then lower to correct depth and cut again. Then I turn the bit so it is at its widest cut, and place back into the rosette channel. I loosen the knob and push the bit against the rosette wall, then tighten the knob. Make another pass and keep doing this until the rosette fits. Then I go the opposite way, and do the same thing. This is what I call easing into the final cut.

Also, do a test cut of the rosette in a piece of scrap and make sure you can fit the rosette in the scrap first before touching the top. This way you will understand the process and know exactly what will work.

In the pic above, this rosette fit so tight in a few places, that I had to hammer it in. So I was very pleased with the result. Anyway, good luck!
Tracy
Author:  LarryH [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:54 am ]
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Er....uh.... are you trying to tell me I could use the circle cutter that came with my Dremel tool?

DOHHH!!

Thanks for the reminder. I forgot I even had such a thing but will give it a try.

Larry
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:29 am ]
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Yes exactly what I'm saying! But a couple of things to consider. The B/W/B ring is probably 1/16" in thickness. You will need to verify this with a caliper. If it is, then use a 1/16" bit from stew-mac. Then use a 1/8" bit for everything else, unless you want to take bigger chunks in a pass, you could even use a 1/4" bit. This is where the expense is...the downcut bits are not cheap, so choose wisely! Good luck.
Tracy
Author:  LarryH [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:28 pm ]
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Thanks Tracy,

I was 'trying' to be bit cute with my response as the obvious slammed me up side the head, but thanks very much again for the suggestion.

I'm also looking forward to the dishes I ordered from you today.

Larry

PS I have 1/8" 1/16" and 3/32" bits in the mail.
Author:  Blain [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:38 pm ]
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I have the rosette cutting jig that LMI offers and have been pleased with it's results. It's a little cumbersome to set up at first, but after that it's great.

I just got a Dremel that came with the circle cutting jig, but I haven't tried that yet. I be interested to hear how it works out for you.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:44 pm ]
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Larry, if you're the type of guy who doesn't like building jigs and if space would be an issue in your shop, check this one out, i have tried it and it worked really well except that i broke mine on the cement floor of my shop! Easy to use and adapts to many types of routers for $31.50 Can, less in US dollars!

precision circle cutter

I now have one like Rod's since he gave me one and this jig rocks, if you are good at building jigs, i'd try to build one like that too! Serge Poirier39089.9906481481
Author:  LarryH [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:23 pm ]
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Thanks for the link Serge. I ordered up some Dremel sized bits and will try the Dremel out on a scrap of redwood to see how well it works. I have a 'fairly' simple design so hopefully I can get it right.

I'll post results.

Larry
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:29 pm ]
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Go get 'em Larry! Can't wait to see the final results. Your dishes should ship early this week if all goes well. Thanks for your business!
Tracy
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:11 pm ]
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Heres what I use. A Trend T 5 router and a straight cutter with a circle cutting jig. I tried the Dremel and the Stewmac jig but dont like same..too much flex in the assembly and the router makes a much cleaner cut.

In case youre wondering about all the arrows all over the router..its so I dont forget which way the cutter is turning. Very important when trying to minimise tear out.

kiwigeo39090.2591550926
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